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A Budgetary Question Options
mkalus
Posted: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 8:15:29 AM
Rank: Master's Mate
Groups: Member

Joined: 2/1/2008
Posts: 7
Points: 21
Barnaby wrote:
I'm fully aware that a quarter of a million people downloading us for free doesn't mean that if there were no illegal internet copies available, our listenership would rise by 247,000. I know bit torrent sites "spread the word" about Big Finish and it's great that that's how you discovered us, but these torrents also massively and incontrovertibly affect our sales figures. Since internet pirate copies of our productions came on the scene a few years back our sales have halved although our listenership has increased by nearly 10,000% - make of that what you will.


That of course is regrettable and it's hard to compete with free.

Personally the idea of just buying downloads is not appealing to me, I prefer a physical product in hand, but then it seems these newfangled kids see things differently.

I admit though, that I do gulp at the ~300/year that 12 discs cost, but hey, I have never griped over a $100 bottle of Scotch either, so as long as I get enjoyment from both of them I will continue to buy both.
rcalmy
Posted: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 6:11:18 PM
Rank: Lieutenant
Groups: Member

Joined: 3/25/2008
Posts: 10
Points: 30
For this overseas customer, the download purchase is a big incentive. The shows are worth the CD price, but it's easier to fit a download into my budget. Not only does BF get more of my money per purchase with the downloads, they're getting more purchases period.

For what it's worth, you probably have one of the smartest approaches to dealing with the Torrents that I've seen: you treat your customers well.

There's not really anything you can do about people who pirate who think they have a right to free entertainment. But the more people who are on the fence who think "Hey, these guys are all right," the better off you are. And I've seen evidence that companies that don't treat their customers well will mostly lead those too principled to pirate to go without the product.
waldo
Posted: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 8:20:56 PM
Rank: Lieutenant-Commander
Groups: Member

Joined: 8/8/2008
Posts: 78
Points: 249
Location: New York City
mkalus wrote:
Personally the idea of just buying downloads is not appealing to me, I prefer a physical product in hand, but then it seems these newfangled kids see things differently.

I admit though, that I do gulp at the ~300/year that 12 discs cost, but hey, I have never griped over a $100 bottle of Scotch either, so as long as I get enjoyment from both of them I will continue to buy both.


And the CDs will last longer than the bottle of Scotch (I assume). :-)

I've always bought the CDs, and directly from BF, though it wasn't until this thread that I realized there were even other options. But I'll continue to buy the CDs.

I just checked US amazon.com, and they have only smattering of the BF S&S CDs (maybe a third of them). Plus a couple of very fetching photos of Joanna Lumley.
terrasolo
Posted: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 9:09:39 PM

Rank: Lieutenant-Commander
Groups: Member

Joined: 2/2/2008
Posts: 63
Points: 92
Barnaby wrote:
It's interesting to note that the number of members in these very forums is currently more than double the number of people who actually buy our releases.


wow. I for one appreciate the fact that you all continue to do this knowing that you are facing such odd in the sales of the stories.

Quote:
That's why we love our customers so much, especially our subscribers: they're the ones keeping Big Finish alive. So thanks to everyone who buys our stuff! And for those of you who don't, could you buy one every now and then? It really will make the world of difference to us. Thanks!


So what happens when someone buys from a US retailer as opposed to directly from the Big Finish site? or even has a subscription with them? Do you get as much per story or do you get less because of this? Being in the US means that for some things it's easier to buy from a US based place as they shipping is less and the ship time is shorter, but I would hate to think that this means that we are reducing chances to see more audios one day.

Brian A. Terranova
http://www.Kasterborous.com
A Doctor Who Webzine
Spaced1999
Posted: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 9:28:26 PM

Rank: Lieutenant-Commander
Groups: Member

Joined: 2/5/2008
Posts: 66
Points: 125
Location: Kent, UK
Barnaby wrote:
At 5%, we could offer all our productions for £2.99 a CD.

I had no idea Fly Me to the Moon was such a big success. I ordered a copy last Friday which hasn't yet arrived; I was imagining the delay was due to the distributors having to chip the dust off the case, but maybe I'm mistaken.
picklepest
Posted: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 9:43:08 PM

Rank: Lieutenant
Groups: Member

Joined: 2/2/2008
Posts: 22
Points: 66
Location: Sol 3
Barnaby wrote:


I can easily understand why people would download stuff illegally (even though I wish they wouldn't), but what I find harder to understand is why someone would buy one of our CDs and then upload it to a torrent site in the first place. If it wasn't on a torrent site, our sales would be proportionally greater and the price of our CDs would come down considerably.


This is the problem I have with torrent sites why would anyone give away something they've spent their hard earned money on. But I think I'm answering my own question. Is it hard earned or are these simply "Pocket Money Pirates", with no appreciation of the economic damage being done to smaller companies like BF?
Barnaby
Posted: Thursday, October 02, 2008 1:30:10 AM

Rank: Big Finish
Groups: Big Finish , Member

Joined: 1/28/2008
Posts: 289
Points: 238
Location: UK
Thanks, folks, for all your reasoned and reasonable replies. I think it's always best to be up front about these things and I'm delighted you seem to agree. Never fear, me hearties, I'm sure we'll work out a way to weather the financial storms and escape being sunk by pirates.

Incidentally, you won't be hearing from me for a month, I'm afraid, because I'll be away. But it doesn't mean I won't be thinking of you all. In the meantime, I wish you much fruitful discussion in these forums and plenty of enjoyment from the forthcoming releases. Bye for now!

Barnaby x

Please note that the views expressed by Barnaby are his own opinions and do not reflect official Big Finish policy. They may also be daft.
Sandlapper
Posted: Thursday, October 02, 2008 7:42:34 AM
Rank: Lieutenant
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 14
Points: 42
mkalus wrote:
Personally the idea of just buying downloads is not appealing to me, I prefer a physical product in hand, but then it seems these newfangled kids see things differently.


I couldn't agree more. Even though I'd DO the exact same thing with CD's and downloads... merge the tracks and make an iPod file out of them; I have a mental block about paying money to download something.

(It should be noted, I also have a mental block about paying full price for anything, as well. So I tend to load up on stuff when it's on sale.)
metalscarab
Posted: Sunday, October 05, 2008 9:57:03 AM
Rank: Lieutenant
Groups: Member

Joined: 2/1/2008
Posts: 24
Points: 72
Barnaby wrote:

Yes, it is disheartening that a production that cost us maybe £35,000 and eight months of work is being downloaded by a quarter of a million people for free (as with The Condemned, for instance) but bought by just over 1% of that.


Just intrigued as to how that figure is calculated (the download one - I'm pretty sure you know how many you sell). Just doing a brief google search for "The Condemned torrent", there seem to be about half a dozen around - most show a figure of "completed downloads: 15", the largest has around 130. Now, that's in no way good, but even assuming it's double that, 300 is still nowhere near 250,000!

I'm in no way justifying uploading or downloading BF stuff, but using hyperbole to make the problem seem bigger than it actually is doesn't help anyone. Isn't it bad enough that 300 people are downloading it illegally?
RayBayley1
Posted: Sunday, October 05, 2008 11:36:43 AM

Rank: Lieutenant
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/6/2008
Posts: 31
Points: 93
Location: Kent, UK
Try a search for "big finish torrent" - there are sites offering the whole collection for download. So while individual shows may have relatively small download numbers, they all mount up.
metalscarab
Posted: Sunday, October 05, 2008 1:45:12 PM
Rank: Lieutenant
Groups: Member

Joined: 2/1/2008
Posts: 24
Points: 72
OK, so let's assume similar figures on the complete Big Finish torrents, and that there are another 10 different searches you could do to find other torrents with The Condemned (the story being talked about) in each with similar numbers. We're still only hitting 3,000. Where are the other 247,000 illegal downloads coming from?
rmdbutler
Posted: Sunday, October 05, 2008 3:33:26 PM
Rank: Lieutenant
Groups: Member

Joined: 2/1/2008
Posts: 37
Points: 111
Location: Cheshunt/Colchester
Filesharing sites like Limewire. They don't show up in Google searches but most people use them
johnwilliams13
Posted: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 12:35:35 AM
Rank: Lieutenant-Commander
Groups: Member

Joined: 2/1/2008
Posts: 87
Points: 261
I do think that Big Finish slightly damage themselves by the quantity of merchandise. I mean if you're a Doctor Who nut and you want to collection all related Big Finish products then this year alone you would need to buy:

13 double CD releases
12 companion chronicles
3 stage plays
Bernice Summerfield audios and books
Short Trips books
8 single 8th Doctor adventures

compared to a few years ago

12 double CD releases
Bernice Summerfield audios and books
1 4 part spin off series
mumbojumbo21
Posted: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 1:00:22 AM

Rank: Lieutenant-Commander
Groups: Member

Joined: 2/17/2008
Posts: 54
Points: -129
Location: New York
BF's main customer base is probably more like people such as myself who buy a couple various different titles at a time in which a diverse selection is more suitable to attract different audiences. I myself like the various line-ups as I have bought titles from the Stargate series, companion chronicles, the main line, 8th adventures, and the Gallifrey series. A person who wants to buy everything especially in this economy is more likely at the extreme side of the curve.

"Oil an emergency?! It's about time the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense."
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
Skippy
Posted: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 12:24:52 PM
Rank: Commander
Groups: Member

Joined: 3/5/2008
Posts: 103
Points: 212
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Keep in mind that Bernice Summerfield doesn't technically fall under the Doctor Who banner. Since she was one of the original drama's BF started doing. It's only since they got the Doctor Who licence did they start to include elements from Doctor Who in it. (Yes I know Bernice is actually a Doctor Who character but she doesn't count).

Also their must be an audience for the non-doctor who stuff other wise they wouldn't be doing them.
Yetaxa
Posted: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 6:13:10 PM

Rank: Brigadier
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/13/2008
Posts: 1,127
Points: 3,302
Location: Sudbury, Suffolk
Barnaby wrote:
picklepest wrote:
I was just wondering how the budget for recording a full cast audio is broken down?


Well, it varies considerably according to the nature of the audio. Full cast audio dramas are naturally the most expensive, plain audiobooks the cheapest. The costs per production are:

Writer
Actors
Director
Producers
Sound designer
Script editor
Marketing manager
Contracts department
Composer
Photographer
Cover designer
Studio booking
Studio engineer
Web site space
Web moderator
Lunch
Replication costs
Distribution costs (massive)
Tax
Script printing
Postage
BBC license
Use of classic monsters
Advertising

There are doubtless more people I've missed out. But, once you've added up all the above costs, you're looking at tens of thousands of pounds per release.

Barnaby x

Lunch? That can't cost that much.
Also, how much would that be in 60s standards, is it cheaper than the 2,500 pounds that they got?

31st December 2008: Return of the Krotons "You will be dispersed!"
DoktorWer
Posted: Thursday, October 09, 2008 9:19:34 AM
Rank: Master's Mate
Groups: Member

Joined: 2/11/2008
Posts: 7
Points: 21
Yetaxa wrote:

Lunch? That can't cost that much.

Have you not heard about those lunches?
Spaced1999
Posted: Friday, October 10, 2008 6:41:10 AM

Rank: Lieutenant-Commander
Groups: Member

Joined: 2/5/2008
Posts: 66
Points: 125
Location: Kent, UK
DoktorWer wrote:
Yetaxa wrote:

Lunch? That can't cost that much.

Have you not heard about those lunches?

They should add a recipe section to this site.
Barnaby
Posted: Friday, October 10, 2008 12:29:00 PM

Rank: Big Finish
Groups: Big Finish , Member

Joined: 1/28/2008
Posts: 289
Points: 238
Location: UK
Yetaxa wrote:
Lunch? That can't cost that much.


Well, if you know how to provide a tasty two-course meal for twelve to fourteen people for two studio days for less than a three-figure sum, please get in touch.

:)

Please note that the views expressed by Barnaby are his own opinions and do not reflect official Big Finish policy. They may also be daft.
Project37
Posted: Friday, October 10, 2008 2:28:00 PM

Rank: Lieutenant
Groups: Member

Joined: 2/2/2008
Posts: 49
Points: 68
Barnaby wrote:

Hey, there's nothing to apologize for. The principle of file sharing is no different from making a cassette copy of your favourite pop album and passing it round your friends at school. I did, you did, we all did it - and it wasn't really a problem for the people making the pop album.


That's really generous of you to be so understanding about it, and I appreciate it. Thank you.

Some more thoughts on torrenting, from personal experience:

Given the abundance of media available via torrents, the thought of damaging a small company is not always on the forefront of the downloader's mind (if at all). In the case of the Doctor Who plays, many people are just grabbing anything and everything that's labeled "Doctor Who" - because 1) it's free, and 2) they're fueled by a fan excitement that goes hand in hand with the advent of the new series. "Oh, I need this week's episode, and hey, there's Confidential, and I'll check out this promotional interview appearance, and say, what's 'Big Finish'?" The lines become easily blurred since there's a "kid in a candy store" feeling, and one isn't always fully aware of the trickle-down economic effect on the smaller guys.

Another thing that's perhaps worth considering is that the new Doctor Who TV series has generated an overwhelming amount of tie-in merchandising. Action figures (including limited editions/variants), toy props, reference guides, comic books, novels, audiobooks, bath soap, etc. Factor in things like DVD releases, DW Magazine, and then the steadily increasing stream of classic Doctor Who merchandise (mainly DVDs and CD audiobooks), and there's suddenly a lot more competition for those monthly Doctor Who-related purchase funds. There's the desire to want to keep up, and it's easy to forget that we as fans don't have a "right" to things like the audios.

I fully understand your point about not wanting to be whiny or authoritarian in getting the message out, but if the stuff is getting out there anyway, perhaps a brief gentle appeal on the occasional release (placed in conjunction with the trailers?) would make a difference? Something friendly and to the point, like, "Hello, this is Paul McGann, thanking you for your continued support of Big Finish Productions. If you downloaded this play and enjoyed it, please consider showing your support by purchasing it on CD or digital download at bigfinish.com." I don't think that would sound whiny at all. It would acknowledge a difficult reality, and might clue someone in that hadn't otherwise considered it.

Speaking for myself, if I'd downloaded something and suddenly heard one of the Doctors (or Benny, Sapphire and Steel, etc.) asking me to consider doing the right thing in paying for it, I would have done so and/or at least stopped downloading plays much earlier than I did.

Again, just a humble suggestion. :) Thanks again!
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